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(古典)音乐杂谈区 #811 Liszt Dante Sonata

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 楼主| 发表于 9-5-2010 04:54 AM | 显示全部楼层
现在的我非常想学习这首曲子,但指导教授却要我先坐在钢琴前好好练了一星期后,才告诉她我的想法。
我是从某堂课知道了这首曲子,也读了一些文章关于这曲,了解得越多,就发现这曲超迷人~
根据我自己的话,这曲代表
The perfect combination of Emotional Expressiveness with Innovative Compositional Ideas
(感情抒发与革新创作想法的完美结合)

Enjoy!Messiaen's Vingt Regards sur l'Enfant Jesus: X Regard de l'Esprit de Joie
Played by Roger Muraro
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发表于 18-5-2010 11:13 PM | 显示全部楼层
这帖怎沉了?我都有(偶尔)来潜水的说。。
我下个月的17号就要考了。再JB
想说有没有大大们可以指点我的program note
曲目:bach- concerto in D minor BWV 974
        haydn-sonata in E flat, no, 29 XVI 45
        rachmaninoff- etude op/39 no. 2 in a minor
        debussy- image no. 1, homage ramaue
        bartok- allegro barbaro
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发表于 18-5-2010 11:14 PM | 显示全部楼层
Marcello was an Italian nobleman who excelled in various areas, including poetry, philosophy, mathematic music and etc. This concerto in D minor was a concerto for oboe, strings and basso continuo, published about 1717 at Amsterdam in a concerto anthology. That publication attracted the attention of J. S. Bach then an organist in Weimar.



Bach was a distinguished and frequent transcriber of his own works as well as those of others. For the harpsichord, he arranged 16 concertos after several Italian composers including Antonio Vivaldi, Prince Johann Ernst von Sachsen and Georg Philipp Telemann.



This concerto is in the typical Marcello sequence for instrumental concerto - a moderately-paced opening movement followed by a slow Adagio central movement and concluded by a lively Presto finale. Bach had successfully adapt musical idea from the original work while showing his own preference of usage ornaments, contrapuntal voices and etc.
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发表于 18-5-2010 11:17 PM | 显示全部楼层
一时没法翻译成中文,请版主见谅,如实在不行我再把它删掉
谢谢
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发表于 18-5-2010 11:17 PM | 显示全部楼层
Classical keyboard sonata is developed during the 18th century during Haydn’s life-time which also a period when keyboard instruments were gradually shifted from harpsichord and clavichord to fortepiano.



Though there are many Barouque works marked ‘sonata’ , sonata often related to the relationship of theme and harmony but not its format at that time. Until the middle of the 18th century, Johann Kuhnao, C.P. E. Bach, Joseph Haydn and others furnished the development of the sonata form. C. P. E. Bach was one of the greatest influences on this development. His sonatas laid the groundwork for many composers after him to exploit.



The E flat major sonata composed by Haydn in 1766, an important year in his life. After the death of the old first Kapellmeister Gregor Werner in March, Haydn promoted from second Kapellmeister to first Kapellmeister. This position provided Haydn a secured income thus it allowed Haydn to develop his personal musical style.  

The sonata (one of his earlier sonatas) was designed for the harpsichord. It Is unusual for Haydn to compose all three movements for this sonata in sonata form.
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 楼主| 发表于 19-5-2010 05:07 PM | 显示全部楼层
Marcello was an Italian nobleman who excelled in various areas, including poetry, philosophy, mathem ...
cutiemock 发表于 18-5-2010 11:14 PM


嗨,你的 program notes 写得很好。
曲子的历史背景资料很充分,但有一点我想或许可以再加添。

通常我把 program notes 的重点,放在曲子的分析,又或者是有趣和特殊的地方。
例如 bach- concerto in D minor BWV 974

这首曲子是 Bach 改编 Marcello 的 concerto for oboe, strings and basso continuo
那么,在这曲子里,Bach 如何把三种音色完全不同的乐器表达出来。
这曲子,Bach 是什么时候写的呢?早期,中期,晚期?
这曲子是否呈现了他那时期的创作风格?创作风格如何?编写方面有什么特殊的地方?
Bach 是否有针对这曲说了写什么吗?

关于 haydn-sonata in E flat, no, 29 XVI 45

我觉得这句:

C. P. E. Bach was one of the greatest influences on this development. His sonatas laid the groundwork for many composers after him to exploit.

是很好的资讯,可是会分散了读者的注意,以我来说,我会突然间和困惑,
我现在读的 program notes 是 haydn 还是 C. P. E. Bach 的 sonata,
需要瞄了瞄标题,确定了,才继续读。
如果你觉得这段话很重要,请完全忽略我已上的话。

1766 年是属于 haydn 那一时期的做品?创作风格如何?
第一乐章的风格是怎样的呢?明媚?沉重?悲伤? 快乐?
第二第三乐章又如何?

haydn 最有特色的作曲手法是 Monothematic,这首曲子是否用了这方式?
关于这三个乐章都是 in sonata form 的一点真的很有趣和特别,如果是我
我会再作点 Research ,关于为什么他要把三个乐章都写成 in sonata form?
既然用同一种 form,他如何把三个乐章写得都不一样?

只是个人意见
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 楼主| 发表于 19-5-2010 05:10 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 Liszt 于 19-5-2010 05:12 PM 编辑

我把自己的一些 Program Note 放上来,希望你读了会比较明白我想表达的。

Debussy: L’isle Joyeuse

Along with Ravel, Debussy was considered one of the most influential French Impressionist composers. His innovative compositions significantly ruptured the conventional form and harmony, eventually opened the path that led Romantic era into 20th century.

As opposed to the lavish, pompous and rhetorical style of late Romanticism, Debussy focused on intrinsic sensitivity and essentially utilized diverse harmonies into single work: irregular absence of tonality through periodic used of harmonies derived from modes (usually Lydian or Mixolydian), whole-tone, and pentatonic scale; endorsing used chords built on intervals 4th and 5th; seventh or ninth chords moved in parallel movement, most often in conjunct step; Colorful and vague sonorities resulted and evoked a sensuous and misty atmosphere.

L’isle Joyeuse was written in 1904 and inspired by Watteau’s painting “The Embarkation for Cythera”. The Greek island Cythera was regarded as place of happiness and sensual fulfilment. It symbolized the island of Jersey, to which Debussy left his wife and escaped for the summer of 1904 with Emma Bardac.

L’isle Joyeuse was one of the relatively few extraverted, openly virtuosic works of Debussy. It begins with birdsong-like trills, followed by vivacious dance-like main motive and progressively building momentum, but occasionally interrupted by lyrical and soft passages. Finally the music reaches to the triumphant and ecstatic height and ends by sweep over the whole keyboard, hitting on the lowest A.

Gordon, A History of Keyboard Literature: Music for the Piano and Its Forerunners, 359.

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 楼主| 发表于 19-5-2010 05:14 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 Liszt 于 19-5-2010 05:20 PM 编辑

Beethoven: Piano Sonata No.8 in C minor, Opus 13 “Pathetique”

I. Grave – Allegro di molto e con brio

II. Adagio Cantabile

III. Rondo: Allegro


Pathetique sonata was one of the two sonatas assigned by composer’s own descriptive title and written in the significant key: C minor, which was commonly regarded as Beethoven’s most powerful key used in his compositions.


The music was dedicated to Prince Karl von Lichnowsky, composed in 1798 when Beethoven was 28 years old and published in the following year. According to Allegemeine Musikalische Zsitung of 19 Feb, 1800, the music acquired universal popularity, but defectively received by academic public. “Ignaz Moschelles was warned against the music of Beethoven by his teacher when he was 10. He came upon a copy of the new “Pathetique” and took it to his teacher in rapture, he was sternly forbidden to corrupt himself with such eccentric stuff !”[5]

This sonata was inventive and no longer took Mozart as a model. It showed exploration of new directions in emotional style and somehow interestingly obligated to Dussek sonatas, which were significant for their prophecies. No historical event, only definitions, can be associated with the term Pathetique. [6] It implied the music was emotional and remarked as program music of the human will.

The first movement fully displays an outward primitivism through abrupt dynamic, texture, and tempo contrast. The heavy-textured dotted rhythm chords that resemble French Overture style at the beginning of slow introduction create an intense, dark and powerful atmosphere. In addition, it is far more than an introduction and reappears at the beginning of the development and the coda as an integral part of the movement, makes music sounds more dramatic.

Different from the wild and motivic first movement, the second movement is exquisite and has a melancholy melody, considered one of Beethoven’s best-known slow movements. The music is essentially heartfelt appeal and retained in simple rondo form. Pensive and defiant characters alternate in the vivid final Rondo. It was suggested to be played “humorously” by Beethoven. However from his playing, Cherubini described it as “rough”, Cramer found it “inconsistent and muddled”, but all agree that it was full of character and temperament.[7]





[5] Luethi, Beethoven Solo Piano Literature, 142.
[6] Drake, The Beethoven Sonatas and The Creative Experience, 77.
[7] Matthews, Beethoven Piano Sonatas, 22.
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发表于 22-5-2010 02:18 PM | 显示全部楼层
brahms 的 symphony 1 , 又名 beethoven symphony 10.。。。。。特别是最后一个乐章,和贝多芬的欢乐颂有异曲同工之美妙。。。。。。。。。

还有,建议下载flac格式的来听听。。。。。。很清的!!!!
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 楼主| 发表于 26-5-2010 09:56 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 Liszt 于 26-5-2010 09:59 PM 编辑

欢迎大家聆听我的作品:天使
这算是其中一首我很喜欢也谱得较好的作品

直接按进以下的连接:
http://demosong.net/Player.Asp?M ... 005262114475715.mp3

请使用 Internet Explorer,进了网页后,等等,然后会开始播放音乐,无需下载。
如果等了大概两分钟,依然没动静,请按 F5 更新网页。
希望你会喜欢,也欢迎提出意见。

(长笛取代了人声,没有过门,音乐的一开始就唱词)

天使
词:chong_kokyong
曲:Liszt

(0:05) 你总是 喜欢 把头靠在 落地窗
让冷冷 的玻璃 贴在 你脸庞
(0:24) 眼睛 凝望着 人潮汹涌 的街上
坐在 那里
(0:39) 静静的 静静的 静静的 静静的
(0:49) 想专注的想

(0:56) 许多的不愉快你都试着隐藏
因为你不想看到我为你伤感
你就是这样处处都为我着想
细心呵护着我就像婴儿一样

(1:14) 许多的不愉快你都试着隐藏
因为你不想看到我为你伤感
你就是这样处处都为我着想
(1:28) 细心呵护着我就像 婴儿一样

(1:37) 天塌了  你会为我扛
下雨了  你会为我撑伞
刮风了  你会为我遮挡
花谢了  你会为我收藏

(2:14) 你就是  这样的善良
护着我  处处为我着想
守着我  就像天使一样
(2:42) 带给我  人生 中 的 曙 光

(2:57) 天塌了  你会为我扛
下雨了  你会为我撑伞
刮风了  你会为我遮挡
花谢了  你会为我收藏

(3:31) 护着我  守着我  
就像 天使 一 样
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 楼主| 发表于 14-6-2010 11:41 PM | 显示全部楼层
唉....很烦....有没有人试弹过Beethoven sonata op10 no.1的3rd movement finale??第67到68个bar的那些chro ...
staf_ferry 发表于 27-5-2010 12:27 AM


连接谱(或哪些小节)上来看看,我的谱都在美国的书橱里。。
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 楼主| 发表于 15-6-2010 02:05 AM | 显示全部楼层
就这两个bar....


我发觉我弹这首有点压力,123141231313125,我不习惯用4转1,上面的fingering我还没用过 ...
staf_ferry 发表于 15-6-2010 01:27 AM


我也不会用 4 转 1 的指法
我建议 123131231313125

那 4 是给 降E 的,是吗?为什么要用 4? 我觉得很奇怪
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 楼主| 发表于 15-6-2010 02:09 AM | 显示全部楼层
想问你,在大学有听过别人拉Bach 的 BWV1007 for solo cello吗?那种感觉一定很奇妙


staf_ferry 发表于 15-6-2010 01:27 AM


目前还没听过,我认识的大提琴手,一般不爱拉独奏曲
他们比较喜欢拉有钢琴伴奏的曲子。。
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 楼主| 发表于 15-6-2010 02:20 AM | 显示全部楼层
比如这首,他们总爱拉这首

Brahms Cello Sonata No.1 in E minor, Op.38, 1st movement

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发表于 23-7-2010 11:52 PM | 显示全部楼层
谢谢lizst的指点。。。 小的终于过了
还望多指教我的LR。 暂时学着haydn sonata in C, 很可爱的一首
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 楼主| 发表于 5-8-2010 12:53 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 Liszt 于 5-8-2010 12:54 PM 编辑

我最爱的一个版本,热情第三乐章。
超爱她的音色,特别是所有的 Running Notes

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 楼主| 发表于 5-8-2010 12:57 PM | 显示全部楼层
柴可夫斯基,小提琴协奏曲第三乐章
非听不可,极出色的演出,赞!!

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发表于 7-8-2010 04:15 PM | 显示全部楼层
为什么beethoven有些symphony和piano concerto,它的第二或者是第三乐章会直接连接最后乐章?没有间隔。。。
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发表于 11-8-2010 07:25 PM | 显示全部楼层
例子?我听过有些symphony也是这样....
staf_ferry 发表于 11-8-2010 01:34 PM


我听过的就只有,piano concerto no.5 , symphony no.5 还有应该是symphony no.8,不清楚beethoven sonata 也有没有这样的格式?
此外,Mendelssohn piano concerto no.1 的1st to 2nd movement 也有类似的情形。
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 楼主| 发表于 13-8-2010 02:19 AM | 显示全部楼层
我听过的就只有,piano concerto no.5 , symphony no.5 还有应该是symphony no.8,不清楚beethoven son ...
蓝天水 发表于 11-8-2010 07:25 PM


Beethoven Piano Sonata in F minor, Op.57 (Appasionata) 的第二乐章是直接连接第三乐章,连接得超酷!
我去年做了一份报告是关于这首钢琴奏鸣曲。
第二乐章和第三乐章之间没有间断是其中的重大创新作曲手法。
对之后的作曲家带来很大的影响力。

例如 Liszt Piano Sonata in B minor
是单一乐章的奏鸣曲,长达三十分钟。
有些人说这只有一个乐章,其中包括了传统奏鸣曲第一乐章的形式(Sonata Form):
Exposition, Development, Recapitulation, and Coda.
也像是奏鸣曲的四个乐章。天才的结合两种形式。

就些人就说这首 B minor Sonata 还是根据四个乐章的手法来创作。
只不过乐章间完全没有间断。

我个人比较倾向第一种说法。
根据 Liszt 在这首奏鸣曲中采用 Thematic Transformation 的手法。
我相信他已经宣告与传统奏鸣曲划清界限。
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