坦尼沙罗尊者：不死的维度并非是毫无觉知...

谷成

摘自： 坦尼沙罗尊者（by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu），《"当你亲证之时When you know for yourselves......" 》

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Second, the dimension of the Deathless is not devoid of awareness, although the awareness here must by definition lie apart from the consciousness included in the five aggregates of fabricated experience.

不死的维度并非是毫无觉知，不过这里的觉知据其定义必然有异于五种造作之蕴里的识蕴。

"Monks, that dimension should be known where the eye (vision) stops and the perception (mental noting) of form fades. That dimension should be known where the ear stops and the perception of sound fades... where the nose stops and the perception of aroma fades... where the tongue stops and the perception of flavor fades... where the body stops and the perception of tactile sensation fades... where the intellect stops and the perception of idea/phenomenon fades: That dimension should be known."

— SN 35.117

“比丘们，了解该维度当在眼（视觉）终止与色受（心理识记）消逝之处。了解该维度应当在耳终止与声受消逝之处......在鼻终止与香受消逝之处......在舌终止与味受消逝之处......在身终止与触受消逝之处......在意终止与想法/现象之受消逝之处: 应当了解那个维度。”

〈相应部SN XXXV.117〉

"Having directly known the extent of designation and the extent of the objects of designation, the extent of expression and the extent of the objects of expression, the extent of description and the extent of the objects of description, the extent of discernment and the extent of the objects of discernment, the extent to which the cycle revolves: Having directly known that, the monk is released. [To say that,] 'The monk released, having directly known that, does not see, does not know is his opinion,' that would be mistaken.'"

— DN 15

“既然已亲证指定的程度与指定对象的程度、表达的程度与表达对象的程度、描述的程度与描述对象的程度、分辨的程度与分辨对象的程度、轮回流转的程度: 该比丘对之亲证而后解脱。[如果说，]他的观点是，‘对其亲证而后解脱的比丘，不见不知，'那是错误的。”

〈长部DN 15〉

Consciousness without feature, without end
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing.
Here long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the stopping
of [the aggregate of] consciousness,
each is here brought to an end.

— DN 11


“无特征、无终极、周遭光明的意识，此处，水、地、火、风无所驻，此处，长、断、粗、细、净、秽、名、色皆止息，随着识(蕴)的止息，一切在此止息。”

〈长部DN 11〉

"Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around, does not partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of fire, the windiness of wind, the divinity of devas (and so on through a list of the various levels of godhood to) the allness of the All (i.e., the six sense spheres)."

— MN 49

“无特征、无终极、周遭光明的意识，不参与地之坚硬、水之液流、火之光明、风之呼动、天神之神性（历经一系列层次不等的神性）等等一切的一切（即六种官感域场）。”

〈中部MN 49〉

"Even so, Vaccha, any form... feeling... perception... fabrication... consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form... feeling... perception... fabrication... consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea."

— MN 72

“更如此，婆蹉，任何以色......受......想.....行.....识描述如来者会这样描述: 如来已出离，如拔起的棕榈，生机已失、永不再生。婆蹉，如来已脱离色....受......想......行......识的类别，如大海，深奥、无限、不可测。”

〈中部MN 72〉

"Freed, dissociated, and released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, and released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, and released from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... from consciousness... from birth... from aging... from death... from stress... Freed, dissociated, and released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness.

"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, and released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness."

— AN 10.81

“巴户那，如来自十事中解放、脱离、解脱，安住于无限的觉知。哪十事? 如来从形态(色)中解放、脱离、解脱，安住于无限的觉知。如来从受......想......行.....识......生......老......死......杂染中解放、脱离、解脱，安住于无限的觉知。

“正如一朵红色、蓝色、白色莲花，生于水、长于水、升出水面之上、直立而不沾于水，同样地，如来──自此十事中解放、脱离、解脱──安住于无限的觉知。”

〈增支部AN X.81〉

These are not the words of a person who has found release in unconsciousness.

这些语句非出自一位在无意识状态中找到解脱的人之口。

Finally, although the Deathless is sometimes called consciousness without feature, without end, it is not to be confused with the formless stage of concentration called the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. One of the main differences between the two is that the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness is fabricated and willed (see MN 140). The element of will, though, can be very attenuated while one is in that dimension, and only discernment at an extremely subtle level can ferret it out. One way of testing for it is to see if there is any sense of identification with the knowing. If there is, then there is still the conceit of I-making and my-making applied to that state. Another test is to see if there is any sense that the knowing contains all things or is their source. If there is, then there is still fabrication in that state of mind, for when the Deathless is fully comprehended, the sense of unrestricted awareness as containing or acting as the source of other things is seen to be an ignorant conceit.

最后，尽管涅盘有时称无相（without feature）、无极（without end）的意识，不可将它与非色界禅定里的识无边处混淆起来。两者之间主要差别之一在于，识无边处由造作与意志而生（见中部MN140）。不过居于该维度时，意志的因素极其微弱的，只有层次极其精细的明辨方能探得。检验的方法之一乃是看你对知性（knowing）是否有任何认同。如果是，该状态则仍有造作我、造作属我之感。另一个检验方法是，看这个觉知是否包容一切或为一切的来源。如果是，该心理状态依然存在造作，因为当不死维度彻底把握之时，会把包容它物或发源它物的无限觉知，当成一种无明的自满。

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愿以分享此文功德，回向一切众生，回向无上菩提，回向四众和合，回向正法久住。Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu.

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三法印

没有色受想行识， 没有眼耳鼻舌身意，没有色声香味触法，究竟涅槃。

如鱼不知陆地的生活，

chong91

好像也是说无我吗？

Quest716

畢畢畢 发表于 8-9-2016 03:08 PM
尊者在說兩種狀態。
1。意識形態的無我
2。證得實際的無我
兩種狀態有天與地之別。
證得無我可算是到了=非想非非想定

“證得無我可算是到了=非想非非想定”

这个怎么讲呢？ 看起来好像一个属于慧，后者属于定

谷成

Quest716 发表于 9-9-2016 02:30 PM
“證得無我可算是到了=非想非非想定”

这个怎么讲呢？ 看起来好像一个属于慧，后者属于定

非想非非想定不是无我，同样的，识无边定更不是无我。尊者是提醒禅修者，勿把这些境界误解为无我。

识无边处天：“诸碍既销，无碍无灭，其中唯留阿赖耶识，全于末那，半分微细，如是一类，名为识处。”诸碍既销，这是牒前面的空无边处，他已经把整个正报的色身，还有外在的依报环境消灭了。这以下说明识无边处的天人，无碍无灭。无碍无灭就是说他连无障碍的虚空他也不欢喜，他觉得虚空还是属于心外之物。他这个时候，他反而回光返照：虚空是无边的，其实我的心识也是无边、也是无障碍的，我应该依止我的心识，那更加的好啊！所以他把虚空也经过他的诃责就消失掉了。这时候他留下什么东西呢？留下三个东西：一、阿赖耶识，阿赖耶识是不能断灭的，是凡夫整个生死的根本。二、全于末那，蕅益大师说：全于末那这一句话是说，末那识是完全存在，俱生的我法二执完全没有破坏，叫全于末那，完全而无缺，第八识、第七识都在。三、半分微细，这是讲第六意识，第六意识有二个差别，第一个是攀缘外面这一部份粗的思想已经消灭了，但是攀缘内在的这一部份这微细的思想还是在，就是半分微细，第六意识还有半分的微细的思想，这叫识无边处天。他觉得虚空虽然无障碍，但毕竟是心外之物，所以他远离所缘的虚空，而返观能分别的心识，而在那地方安住，叫识无边处。————净界法师讲述，《大佛顶如来密因修证了义诸菩萨万行首楞严经》要义

非想非非想处天：“识性不动，以灭穷研，于无尽中，发宣尽性，如存不存，若尽非尽，如是一类，名为非想非非想处。”非想就是说好像是没有想，非非想就是说事实上还是有微细的想。他介于想跟无想之间，他很想要无想，但是做不到，所以存在于非想非非想。识性不动，识性古德说这指的第八识。第八识是寂静不可断灭的，第八识怎么可以断灭，第八识断灭生命就断灭。但是这个人对第八识是什么心态呢？以灭穷研，他很想用高深的灭尽定要穷究第八识的边际。但是于无尽中，发宣尽性，但是第八识的体性就是真如，真如一念妄动以后，真如就变成第八识了，所以第八识当然没办法穷尽。他怎么办呢？发宣尽性，他在不可穷尽的第八识当中，他用高深的禅定，他要勉强去穷尽他的体性。所以得到二个结果：如存不存，若尽非尽，在体性上来说，第八识的功能好像是有又好像是没有，从第八识的作用功能来说，第八识的功能好像穷尽又好像没有穷尽，如是一类，名非想非非想处。————净界法师讲述，《大佛顶如来密因修证了义诸菩萨万行首楞严经》要义

Quest716

谷成 发表于 9-9-2016 02:37 PM
非想非非想定不是无我，同样的，识无边定更不是无我。尊者是提醒禅修者，勿把这些境界误解为无我。

对，比较像 大我

Quest716

畢畢畢 发表于 9-9-2016 03:01 PM
我們的每天行動到禪修也好，都是意識形態在造作。
當禪修到某階段後才能觀到這些造作我了解到無我，然後再把這造作分開進入我-非我-我想非我想。
這些都是確實印證，並非靠意識形態幻想印證。

无我，我有体会一点。倒是大我，很难体会到。你了解大我吗

Quest716

那是说 有一种 “觉性” 超越我们经验过的五蕴 “想”  “识”  范围咯。。

还是第一次听到。这段经文没有听师父讲过。

三法印

这是证悟觉醒后的 “觉性”， 佛和阿罗汉处有余涅槃和无余涅槃的觉性。

这个超过世间五蕴的认知，所以大乘人不知佛和阿罗汉的无余涅槃的状况，竟然称入无余涅槃是灰身灭智。怪哉！

Quest716

三法印 发表于 22-9-2016 03:55 PM
这是证悟觉醒后的 “觉性”， 佛和阿罗汉处有余涅槃和无余涅槃的觉性。

这个超过世间五蕴的认知，所以大乘人不知佛和阿罗汉的无余涅槃的状况，竟然称入无余涅槃是灰身灭智。怪哉！

嗯，这段经典需要highlight一下