浅谈逻辑错乱与哲学

素还真

心里话，我真的很厌恶开这个主题，因为这个主题让我有“教小孩子”的感觉，不是第一次教，而是重复又重复的教。可是为了拨乱反正，免得其他读者被不学无术之徒影响，我却不得不费些心思来谈这个主题。

活在自己的世界
人类是群体的动物，我们活在世上免不了与人沟通。有沟通就有共识！要与社会甚至和世界接轨，要先有共识，彼此都知道对方所说的概念，这样才能达到沟通的效果。没有共识就等于与对方脱节。一个人没有社会的共识就等如与世界脱节，就像是活在自己的世界中。

哲学是一门学科，乃是集人类追求真理，和谐，幸福思想的知识总汇。西方哲学包括了古希腊哲人的思想，乃至后来的神学，马克思思想等等。当我们谈到东方哲学，这包括了诸子百家，阴阳五行，佛家的四圣谛，禅宗，般若思想等等。哲学是由谁归类与定义？这都是前人所作，后人依随成为社会共识。当我们提到哲学，上帝，佛陀，老子，孔子包括皆在其中。这皆是人类思维的产物，为了追求和谐，幸福与真理！

哲学这两个字，虽然各人解说并不全然相同，可是绝对不会超出世人的共识。当我们去图书馆走到【哲学类】这个部门时，我们可以肯定在书架上的书除了充塞着西方哲人，也包括一些宗教家的思想。当我们打开【西方哲学史】，【苏菲的世界】这类哲学书籍，我们可以在其中找到上帝信仰的思想，造物和被造物，创世与末日等等。上帝的思想深深影响着西方人，甚至是现代世人。

哲学这两个字不是某某人的专利，它不属于任何学术界，也不属于任何团体，它是人类的共识。当我们提到哲学，我们心里就知道哲学是什么。就算与远在他乡的人提起哲学，彼此都知道哲学的意义，这就是共识。

假如某人因为私利与无知，自己胡乱的定义哲学，使之的意义脱离了人类对哲学这个概念的共识，这等如骑劫了哲学这两个字，把它据为己有，还强逼其他人去信奉他的说法。难道要全人类，全学术界都去迁就这无知之徒的定义？肯定不！脱离了人类的共识就好象活在自己的世界中，不能很好的与其他人沟通。可想而知这种人不止无知，而且自大，封闭自己在自己想象的世界里头。活在自己世界这个单元写到这里。

接下来我要谈的是不可比较性。

素还真

不可比较性

当我们对某样东西或概念做出比较，肯定的，这些东西或概念必然是有可比性，即是彼此有共同的性质可以比较，且必须有意义的比较。

比如说打羽毛球比学数学更好，有得比较吗? 根本没得比较。这个课题争辩起来毫无意义，简直是在浪费时间！同样的生物学比营养学更伟大，有得比较吗？完全没有比较的意义！

回到主题，哲学和宗教有得比较吗？ 完全没有可比性！比什么？哲学更伟大？宗教更伟大？这是毫无意义的比较。（请参考第一楼关于哲学的世人共识）换一题，无神论者和一神论者，其信徒们的道德观可以比较吗？可以！因为彼此都是同类别的概念。可是假如问题变成无神论有神论，哪个更加伟大？这种比较就毫无意义，也没有答案。

说到这里，一个人把没有可比性的概念或东西硬拿来比较就是一种逻辑错乱，因为这个人连根本的分类都搞不清楚，不知道什么东西可以比较，什么事物不可以比较，什么东西比较有意义，什么东西比较来毫无意义。

guilimen

請問,

"宗教哲學"Philosophy of Religion ,

這們學科 ,難道不是由各自宗派的學者們所發明的嗎?

素还真

哲学的目的是为了辩论？

一些人以为哲学的目的是为了更厉害的辩论，和比其他人想到或看到更多东西。是这样吗？学哲学的目的真的是这么肤浅吗？为了赢得辩论？

有些人以为学好逻辑学就是等于学了哲学，这样的想法也是不对。要知道逻辑学是古人为了验证一个叙述是否合乎现实的工具。比如说楚国商人吹嘘自己的矛，任何盾可以刺穿。又吹嘘自己盾，任何矛都刺不破。结果路人甲反问商人，用他家的矛刺他家的盾，结果如何？商人就回答不出。这个故事体现楚国商人做出了 的叙述是违背了现实情况。使用逻辑推论，我们就可以验证商人的叙述是否合理，这就是逻辑学的功能。

逻辑学的目的不是拿来辩论。可是对于不懂逻辑，或逻辑思维错乱的人，有时也得使用逻辑学拆穿他的西洋镜，或自相矛盾的叙述。

比如说句子sentence以下的叙述，就可以发现很多思想与逻辑错乱的例子：

『Rene Girard？ 不过是试图合理化宗教的各种行为，让人们认为宗教是有其必要性。

甘地和马丁路德金，他们的思想变化在于民主意识的觉醒，是哲学性。
如果你认为这是出于宗教个人化，还请详细解说，谢谢。』

比如说：合理化宗教的各种行为 -- 宗教的行为，比如说祈祷，有必要合理化祈祷的行为吗？又或者宗教徒布施财物给穷人，有必要合理化他们的行为吗？

接下来我们看这句：『甘地和马丁路德金，他们的思想变化在于民主意识的觉醒，是哲学性。』

思想变化在于民主意识到觉醒？这是什么意思？是民主意识的觉醒导致思想变化？还是思想变化导致民主意识觉醒？假如说是思想变化导致民主意识觉醒，为什么使用“在于”这两个。加了“在于”这两个字，整个句子完全没有指定的意义。这就跟没有意义的废话一样。

另外哲学性是什么？哲学性是一种可以咬，可以吃，可以摸的东西？不是！哲学性是一种性质！什么性质？这是一种什么性质? 这种性质竟然可以用来形容民主意识到觉醒？这是什么性质?

我就假定哲学性是形容思想。那么什么思想才算是哲学性？ 民主意识思想算是哲学性？那么马克思思想算不算哲学性? 般若的思想算不算哲学性？般若思想，懂吗？不需要涉及鬼鬼神神。李小龙的功夫哲理，他对水与功夫的看法有哲学性吗？光合作用这个知识有哲学性吗？电脑运算的概念算是哲学性吗？经济学理论算是哲学性吗？再深思下，有必要使用哲学性这个词汇吗？谁人懂哲学性是什么？UM, UKM, USM等大学的哲学教授与讲师们，他们懂哲学性是什么吗？

再来！不哲学和愚蠢，两者的概念可以更替吗？比如某个小学三年级学生，老师教他加减法，却屡教不会。老师骂这个孩子愚蠢。我们可以对老师说，别骂他愚蠢，应该骂他不够哲学。这样说对吗？

以上都是逻辑错乱的例子。

bashlyner

你可以用哲学角度去研究宗教，或者用科学角度去研究宗教，但这不会让宗教变成哲学、科学。一本佛经或者圣经可以产生一个宗教，同时也可以含有哲学意义，但这不代表宗教本身具有哲学成分，因为经典只是宗教的一部分，就如在一辆车子里面装有收音机，不代表车子就是收音机

素还真

哲学与宗教根本没有可比性。

要批评宗教，可以从各种宗教观点去批评，没有必要扛上哲学大旗持剑卫道。一个人不相信上帝，就以上帝不存在的观点来反驳。假如说不相信上帝，却把整个哲学搬出来批判上帝，这好比古时法国的数学家用数学公式证明上帝不存在一样无聊。

Roy_Tantra5053

我比较倾向于觉得....形而上的分类必须明晰，什么是哲学，什么是宗教，什么是科学，每个学者心里应该要有个底。

至于逻辑学，本质上它就不是一个有规律的学问，如果说...宗教说人可以飞，科学证明人只能在地上走，逻辑的工作不是宣布说“不应该比较”，也不是用科学的逻辑去判断宗教，更不是用宗教的逻辑去判断科学，逻辑必须建立在本质的问题上，比如：“人为什么不能飞？”

由本质建立问题，进而摒弃门户之见，学科之见，只在错综复杂的浩瀚讯息世界里整理出有关联性的讯息。

至于怎样判断什么是关联性，又怎样证明关联性本身真的有关联，那则是辩证法的范围。

宗教家会说科学家没逻辑，同样的....科学家也会说宗教家没逻辑，因为个人主义，知识限制，所谓的“逻辑”其实通常都只建立在个人的观点与信念，所以既然是一种辩证产物，本身是不是混乱，倒也不是很重要。

重要的只是如何每次思考都提醒自己要走向大逻辑，却也不要偏移小逻辑的范畴。因为当知识渐进时，主观逻辑会发挥自己的作用，透过掌握几个已经认识的真理，进一步就不会被客观世界的知识牵着鼻子走，这样才会慢慢的从真理中发现新的真理。

当然....这么说的话难免像在推崇偏执个人主义.....但逻辑学只是个工具，除非你是领悟宇宙终极奥秘的人，否则没有人有资格评论谁的逻辑是错的。

又举例说....我们当然用佛教的逻辑去了解佛教，难不成用基督教的逻辑去了解佛教？如此一来...得到的一定是混乱，莫名其妙的思想矛盾；但跳过这一步时.....走向大逻辑，就要把宗教的问题建立在本质上，如果问：“宗教的存在是为什么？”，也许有人会说“宗教都是教人向善的”，事实上也许很多宗教不过在诈财，搞组织，搞势力，但我们不能说认为“宗教都是教人向善的”的人逻辑有问题，脑袋有问题。

以前的人定义快乐，也许只是三餐温饱；现在的人定义快乐，除了吃好住好，出街还要超跑。

如果说“哲学”二字真的有版权，倒不如说.....想定义它的人在想申请专利权。

洪七公

哪，

到我了。
做叫化的很简单的，比较倾向现实的，因为没本钱，所以当然也不想和任何人针锋相对。

就你的帖，虽然写得顺畅有条，但明眼注重内容的人—看，内容是不逻辑及矛盾的。

当你睡饱饱，明天醒来好，还要息下火气重读自己所写，大致就可以了解自犯的矛盾牲了。
答案也很简单，并非在垃圾桶内，而是在#1的第三段，是与你本身提出宗教与哲学不可比较性有关的矛盾。


当然帖里还有一些矛盾，答案也非在垃圾桶里。
是与你不提倡文字辨有关的矛盾，你本身自犯及报名在文字辨写派了。。。在哪一段自己看吧！！

心里话，我真的很厌恶写这楼，因为这个楼让我有“教上上智”的感觉。虽然知人者智，自知者明，自犯者愚已提过，不过还是要再三提醒。

洪七公

Roy_Tantra5053 发表于 2-11-2012 02:35 AM
我比较倾向于觉得....形而上的分类必须明晰，什么是哲学，什么是宗教，什么是科学，每个学者心里应该要有个 ...

" 如果说“哲学”二字真的有版权，倒 不如说.....想定义它的人在想申请专 利权。"


Aiyoyo,  你这句话很妙。

叫化遇到一位上上智哲学宗师，他hor贯通哲学，能够为哲学统一作个标准定义。也或许他有专利权了。
他告诉叫化，哲学的定义答案就在叫化家的垃圾桶里。

叫化用了一天一夜也参透不出里面的玄机。
您呀，要不要一起来思索参透上上智的高言？？



但hor,..
重点是，叫化家里没有垃圾桶啦！！因为四周都是垃圾堆。。。怎么办呢？？

akira_kurosawa

呵呵插楼路过。

林冲

句：「不算是偷换概念，只是以简单事务来解释概念。
就像救人，有能力者救之，无能力者找人救之，而不是置之不理，顾好自己。
我相信你能领悟我要说些什么。」


句子不单单只是要我们以句子式逻辑去＂领悟＂他表达的到底是什么葫芦里卖的是什么药，而且还要我们揣摩他的心思结构，去探索其内心神秘地带的宝藏。

林：「就只是注重你自己好了，周遭环境的演变有他的生存价值，如果执意要把这些人的依靠都揽在自己的身上不见得你有能力全部去处理。」

句：「曾经有个人路过河边，看见河中有人遇难挣扎，
但他本着只注重自己的心态，很尊重地任由环境演变，坐视那人淹死在河中……」

这就是＂宝藏＂之一，谁有兴趣可以拿回家供奉。

Roy_Tantra5053

洪七公 发表于 2-11-2012 08:25 AM
" 如果说“哲学”二字真的有版权，倒 不如说.....想定义它的人在想申请专 利权。"

上上智哲学宗师？可以引荐引荐吗？小弟有些烦恼，其实一直想寻访高人指点迷津～

句子Sentence

靠，发现小素越来越失控，言论越来越教徒式逻辑错乱~

akira_kurosawa

宗教和哲学=一体两面的硬币。

宗教精神=宗教的精髓，其中有好友坏
同理
哲学的想象力（如共产，民主，超人）=哲学的精髓，其中的影响有好有坏。

宗教精神的影响，例子：天赋人权，十字军，狩猎巫女，红十字，新月会的出现，法国大革命，黑人民运，文艺复兴，大宪章，美国独立宣言，民主，法律精神。等

哲学精神的影响，例子：天赋人权，民主，法律精神，红十字，新月会的出现，法国大革命，黑人民运，文艺复兴，大宪章，美国独立宣言，大跃进，文革，史达林红色恐怖，希特勒的超人学说等。

除掉宗教=哲学伪宗教的出现，平衡打破的后果。

除掉哲学=宗教原教旨伪真理的出现，平衡打破的后果。

结论，人性有好有坏，宗教有好有坏，哲学有好有坏，只是在于人如何去学习其中精髓。

洪七公

Roy_Tantra5053 发表于 3-11-2012 02:43 AM
上上智哲学宗师？可以引荐引荐吗？小弟有些烦恼，其实一直想寻访高人指点迷津～[/backc ...

哦，
最近哲学版很火红！！
在上演连环帖车轮辩，少追一楼可失去听闻无上至高哲理玄机了。

垃圾哲理学起源在句子与基督对话的#214开宗明义。

致於大师，别乱找，把烦恼求问在这帖问就好！！

dragon_tan01

嗯。。
搂主，
你所说的哲学，是共识吗？

这楼里，只要出现一个与你有异论的人的话，你所说得就不叫共识了咯。

akira_kurosawa

dragon_tan01 发表于 3-11-2012 04:06 PM
嗯。。
搂主，
你所说的哲学，是共识吗？

哲学共识是万物之理。没有一个固定的解释。

dragon_tan01

akira_kurosawa 发表于 3-11-2012 06:15 PM
哲学共识是万物之理。没有一个固定的解释。

哲学共识是万物之理。
哲学共识没有一个固定的解释。

你解释了哲学共识‘是’万物之理。
却又说没有一个固定的解释。

有没有一点矛盾？

素还真

阿谁谁又在字句上钻牛角尖，真的懒得理会这种人。

什么是common sense? 虽然地球绕太阳公转是常识，可是并非全世界100%的人都知道这个常识。没受过教育的土著，阿公，阿嫲，又或者文盲都不知道这个常识。同样的，哲学的定义不是人人都晓得。可是举凡从事哲学或涉及到哲学的作家，学者，图书管理员等等都知道哲学的范畴是哪些，这是共识。

林冲

美国独立宣言：
Us history.org


IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.